美國軍事博主以數(shù)據(jù)對比J20和F35等多款五代戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)，到底誰更強(qiáng)？（二）
American F-35s encounter Chinese J-20s over the Pacific
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The F-35's RCS is smaller than F-22's, the 0.005m2 figure were old estimates and requirement. The F-35 exceeded this parameter
F-35的RCS（雷達(dá)截面）比F-22的要小，0.005平方米是很久以前的估計(jì)和要求了?，F(xiàn)在的F-35已經(jīng)超過了這個(gè)參數(shù)
So, which one had detected the other first and, at what distance?
那么，到底是誰先發(fā)現(xiàn)了對方，距離有多遠(yuǎn)？
The J20 can’t download a lower RCS, and as such is limited by the airfrx regardless of its other systems.
J20沒有實(shí)現(xiàn)低RCS（雷達(dá)截面，又代表隱身能力），因此無論J20的其他系統(tǒng)如何，它的隱身能力都受到機(jī)身的限制。
I wonder what the next descxtion we will use for fighters after stealth? We call the f35 a stealth fighter but I think its more of a smart fighter.
我想知道在隱形之后我們會(huì)用什么來描述戰(zhàn)機(jī)？我們稱f35為隱形戰(zhàn)機(jī)，但我認(rèn)為它更像是一款智能戰(zhàn)機(jī)。
China's J-10 looks like a love child between a RAF EJ2000 Typhoon and an USAF F-16 fighting falcon.
The Japanese and South Koreans are developing a stealth aircraft too, the Japanese in conjunction with BAE systems with its Tempest program.
中國的殲-10看起來就像是英國皇家空軍的EJ2000臺(tái)風(fēng)戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)和美國空軍的F-16戰(zhàn)斗獵鷹戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)相愛之后生的孩子。
日本和韓國也在開發(fā)一種隱形飛機(jī)，日本與BAE系統(tǒng)公司正在聯(lián)合開發(fā)“暴風(fēng)雨”項(xiàng)目。
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“Dogfights won’t be a thing in the future.” Until stealth cancels out those long range missiles and fighters find themselves in the merge at the same time they realize there IS an enemy fighter. Then you’ll wish you had the thrust vectoring to just point the nose and loose a Fox 2 in seconds.
Talking Hands
Man, it's too bad about the F-22s limitations because it's actually a really bad-ass fighter... Although I've always had a soft spot in my heart for the F-18E Super Hornets...
哪怕我一直對F-18E超級大黃蜂戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)有好感……伙計(jì)，我也要說f -22的局限性太糟糕了，因?yàn)樗鼘?shí)際上只是一種非常厲害的戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)（指近距離空戰(zhàn)）……
5th Gen fighters have some new technology that the 4th Gen doesn't but not necessarily stealth, tho that is the norm for now. Stealth fighter means a low radar return that prevents reliable targeting until the fighter has penetrated enough for it to have a high chance of mission success. From everything I've heard the Felon and the J-20 are 5th Gen (super cruise, beyond visual range engagement) but may not be stealth.
第五代戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)還有一些第四代戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)沒有的新技術(shù)，但不一定非要是隱身能力，盡管這是目前大家公認(rèn)的常態(tài)。隱形戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)只是意味著低雷達(dá)回波，可以充分滲透深入任務(wù)區(qū)域完成任務(wù)。但據(jù)我所知，F(xiàn)elon和J-20是第五代戰(zhàn)機(jī)的能力，是因?yàn)槌壯埠剑暰嘧鲬?zhàn)，可不全是因?yàn)殡[身能力。
What two countries have is not the key point to me, but what these fighters are used for is important to me. I know that China tries hard to strengthen its defense to protect itself including Tai Wai area, but the US, from the history, used these fighters for attacking other countries.
中美兩國擁有什么戰(zhàn)機(jī)對我來說不是重點(diǎn)，重要的是這些戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)的用途。我知道中國努力加強(qiáng)國防以保護(hù)自己，包括臺(tái)灣（地區(qū)），但從美國的歷史上看，美國卻是使用這些戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)攻擊其他國家。
you forgot to mention J-20 now has a twin-seat variant, a second operator can control drones and weapon systems, it is preparing for the upcoming drone age
你忘了說殲-20現(xiàn)在有了雙座改進(jìn)型，第二個(gè)操作員可以控制無人機(jī)和武器系統(tǒng)，他們正在為即將到來的無人機(jī)時(shí)代做準(zhǔn)備
The Chinese says:
That's okay, we'll just have some of yours.
中國人表示：
沒事，我們只是剛有了你們的一些東西。
China’s whole approach to war with US isn’t to match its capabilities 1:1, its strategy has always been to build something that is relatively competitive to US but at a significantly cheaper price / quicker, which enables it to produce at higher volume at quicker pace. J20 is a classic example of that. In the idealist engagement found in movies like top gun I am sure the f22 or f35 is a more capable fighter than j20, but a real air engagement is never 1 vs 1. Think Zerg approach vs protess :)
No one really knows if this strategy of quantity over quality will work in a real full scale war and let’s hope we will never find out. The one advantage US has that’s unmatched is the experience of its military, US has been engaged in war pretty much nonstop for the last 90+ years, it has a very experienced military, vs china whose last real war was in 1979 with Vietnam where it played out exactly like how US did, went in easy but suffered catastrophic losses trying to maintain and later during retreat. Those soldiers have all but retired, the current Chinese military has zero combat experience.
Considering how the Russians did in Ukraine and they have an experienced military fought in Syria etc…it’s a big concern for China if it ever went into a full scale engagement, although China’s technology and equipment are far superior than Russians nowadays.
中國對美國的整個(gè)作戰(zhàn)方式并不是1:1的戰(zhàn)機(jī)互換匹配，中國的戰(zhàn)略一直是建造與我們相對有競爭力的東西，但他們會(huì)有明顯更便宜的價(jià)格，這使中國能夠以更快的速度生產(chǎn)更多的數(shù)量。J20就是一個(gè)經(jīng)典的例子。而以電影《壯志凌云》中的理想主義交戰(zhàn)模式，我確信f22或f35是一種比j20更有能力的戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)（近距離空戰(zhàn)追擊），但真正的空中交戰(zhàn)從來不是1對1的狗斗。大家想想蟲族的戰(zhàn)斗方法就知道了。
沒有人真正知道這種數(shù)量重于質(zhì)量的戰(zhàn)略是否會(huì)在真正的全面戰(zhàn)爭中奏效，希望我們永遠(yuǎn)不會(huì)找到答案。美國現(xiàn)在擁有的一個(gè)優(yōu)勢是軍事經(jīng)驗(yàn)，因?yàn)槊绹谶^去90多年里幾乎一直在參戰(zhàn)，美國有一支非常有經(jīng)驗(yàn)的軍隊(duì)，而中國上一次真正的戰(zhàn)爭還是在1979年與越南的戰(zhàn)爭，那場戰(zhàn)爭就像美國對越南做的一樣，輕松進(jìn)入，但在試圖維持陣腳，和后來撤退的過程中遭受了災(zāi)難性的損失。而這些老兵幾乎都退役了，目前的中國軍隊(duì)沒有任何戰(zhàn)斗經(jīng)驗(yàn)。
考慮到俄羅斯在烏克蘭的表現(xiàn)，以及俄羅斯還有在敘利亞作戰(zhàn)的經(jīng)驗(yàn)豐富的軍隊(duì)，如果中國全面參與，戰(zhàn)爭經(jīng)驗(yàn)將是中國的一大軟肋，盡管中國的技術(shù)和裝備遠(yuǎn)超俄羅斯人。
The j20 looks more dope than the f22, but looks don't make it better
j20看起來比f22更酷，但外表并不能讓它真的更好
Unfortunately,for us in the west, we have NATO pilots who have gone over to China to teach them our approach to flying fighter jets and thus giving away our tactics and techniqes while also giving away how our fighters handle etc.Selling out our Air Forces is a disgrace to put it lightly.
不幸的是，對我們西方來說，我們有北約飛行員去中國教他們我們的戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)飛行方法，從而泄露了我們的戰(zhàn)術(shù)，同時(shí)也泄露了我們的戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)如何操作等技術(shù)。這些出賣我們空軍的人是一種恥辱。
Good luck maintaining your stealth force without chips.
祝你們在沒有芯片的情況下還能保持你們故意遮遮掩掩的力量。
Its always the enemy within that causes the most damage.
造成最大傷害的總是內(nèi)部的敵人。
China has some cool designs. Interesting innovation
中國有一些很酷的設(shè)計(jì)。有趣的創(chuàng)新
FWIW, I've read reports that Indian radars have routinely been able to detect flights by J-20s.
我讀過一些報(bào)告，說是印度雷達(dá)經(jīng)常能夠探測到殲-20的飛行。
Bit wrong on the engines there, the WS-10C is the engine in the majority of J-20 and it isn’t a Russian based engine, it actually traces its heritage to a French engine but has little to do with it any more.
Also the WS-10A was a rough equivalent of the AL-31, the WS-10C is probably half a generation ahead.
發(fā)動(dòng)機(jī)數(shù)據(jù)有點(diǎn)不對，WS-10C是殲20的主要發(fā)動(dòng)機(jī)，但它不是俄羅斯的發(fā)動(dòng)機(jī)，它實(shí)際上可以追溯到法國發(fā)動(dòng)機(jī)的原型，但其實(shí)這些老黃歷已經(jīng)沒有什么意義了。
總之WS-10A大致相當(dāng)于AL-31, WS-10C可能領(lǐng)先了半代。
Jesus christ the F22 even after 20 years is so sexy and clean.
天啊，F(xiàn)22在20年后依然如此性感和干凈。
The fact that the hackers were able to hack the blueprints because it was on an open network makes me suspect or completely concerned. Why wasn't it in a closed system? And physically copied and transferred to another closed system/database. I understand it's inefficient but so is staying ahead of an adversary who actively steals your technology over the internet.
事實(shí)上，黑客之所以能夠入侵得到設(shè)計(jì)圖，是因?yàn)檫@些設(shè)計(jì)圖是在一個(gè)開放的網(wǎng)絡(luò)上，這讓我感到不得不質(zhì)疑或很擔(dān)心。為什么設(shè)計(jì)圖不是在封閉系統(tǒng)中？直接物理復(fù)制并轉(zhuǎn)移到另一個(gè)封閉的系統(tǒng)/數(shù)據(jù)庫。我知道這么做可能存在低效的問題，但要領(lǐng)先于一個(gè)經(jīng)常通過互聯(lián)網(wǎng)竊取你的技術(shù)的對手，這是必須的手段。
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1 Was the F-35 in stealth mode or did it have its reflectors deployed to hide its true RCS?
2 I believed early on that its mission design was not an air superiority fighter or a land attack aircraft, but an anti-ship aircraft. Specifically, an anti carrier aircraft.
1、F-35是否處于隱身模式？還是部署了反射鏡（龍伯透鏡）來隱藏它真正的隱身？
2、我很早就認(rèn)為F35的設(shè)計(jì)不是空中優(yōu)勢戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)或?qū)﹃懝魴C(jī)，而是反艦機(jī)。具體來說，是一架反航母戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)。
Those j 20s are probably broken by the end of this video
這些j 20可能在視頻結(jié)束時(shí)（指短時(shí)間內(nèi)）被全部打掉
Have a hard time with a jet that's got canards is really stealthy. Anybody can enlighten me that would be great.
有鴨翼的噴氣式飛機(jī)真的很隱形呢！任何人都可以來反駁我，如果你能反駁成功那就太好了。
Is the J-20 really a 5th generation fighter or a 4 1/2?
殲-20到底是第五代戰(zhàn)機(jī)還是四代半戰(zhàn)機(jī)？
The J-20 is impressive looking jet
J-20是一種外觀令人印象深刻的噴氣式飛機(jī)
This didn′t make sense at all! If the the j 20 had a RCS of 5 m2 or higher it would be less stealthy than an F-15.
I know that the j 20 isn′t as stealthy as the F-22 or F-35 but it still has many features that would reduce its RCS.
BTW In the sources i found the RCS of the j 20 was stated between 0.03 m2 and 0.2 m2 what would it make more simular to the RCS of an F-117
這根本說不通好嗎！如果j 20的RCS是5平方米或更高，那么它的隱身能力將連F-15都不如。
我知道j20的隱身能力不如F-22或F-35，但它仍有許多降低RCS的特殊關(guān)鍵點(diǎn)。
順便說一下，在資料中，我發(fā)現(xiàn)j 20的RCS在0.03到0.2之間，這與F-117的RCS更相似
If two opposing aircraft your absolutely stealth, how would they know they ran into each other?
如果兩架相對的飛機(jī)都是絕對隱形的，他們怎么知道他們碰到了對方？
If dogfights are irrelevant wouldn't it now be advantageous to have craft that swoosh in at even higher top speeds and blast other aircraft to smithereens with rapid cannon fire that make missiles and bombs obsolete and unable to defend against such precise tracking and sudden appearance at such a close range you can't defend with missiles especially if they think dogfighting cannons are irrelevant? I think this should be considered.
如果空戰(zhàn)真的正在變得無關(guān)緊要，那么現(xiàn)在有一種從更高空間以高速俯沖過來，直接用速射炮將其他飛機(jī)炸成碎片的飛船不是更有優(yōu)勢嗎？這樣一來，導(dǎo)彈和炸彈就過時(shí)了，無法防御如此精確的跟蹤，和如此近距離的突然出現(xiàn)，因?yàn)閷?dǎo)彈根本無法防御，尤其是在他們認(rèn)為空戰(zhàn)大炮無關(guān)緊要的情況下。我認(rèn)為我這個(gè)想法應(yīng)該被戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)設(shè)計(jì)師認(rèn)真考慮。
That J10 is at least so heavily influenced by Israel's discontinued Lavi that denial of that much is pretty much transparently insincere all other weight and size differences in those two individual fuselages considered. It would be interesting to see just how many signature similarities exist in the airfrx drawings. Not meaning to make any geopolitical point with it because it's not that surprising considering China's history of cloning what's known to work..
考慮到J10和以色列獅式戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)兩種戰(zhàn)機(jī)機(jī)身的重量和尺寸差異，J10至少受到以色列已停止使用的獅式戰(zhàn)機(jī)的影響很大，否認(rèn)這一點(diǎn)顯然并不真誠。人們可以看看到底有多少相似簽名存在于J10的機(jī)身圖紙上，這肯定會(huì)很有趣的。我并不是說要提出任何地緣政治觀點(diǎn)，只是因?yàn)榭紤]到中國克隆已知有效的東西的歷史，J10對獅式并不令人驚訝。
So proud to be an American
我為自己是美國人感到驕傲
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The j20 can’t move very well. It’s so heavy and needs stronger engines.
j20不能更好地快速移動(dòng)。它太重了，它需要更強(qiáng)勁的發(fā)動(dòng)機(jī)。
F-35 - "Don't make me call my big brother!"
F-35:“別逼我給我大哥打電話！”
It seems kinda funny that China put out essentially an Ace Combat cutscene for their jet. It's like if War Thunder was putting out some new DLC. They would probably make it look better though lol
中國為他們的飛機(jī)制作了一個(gè)Ace Combat的過場動(dòng)畫，這看起來有點(diǎn)滑稽。這就像《War Thunder》發(fā)行了一些新的DLC。不過這么做可能會(huì)讓它看起來更好，哈哈
words, it is all words, until the actual combat takes place , nothing can predicted, shit happens, if one can not acknowledge this who will be the victor
廢話，都是廢話，在真正的戰(zhàn)斗發(fā)生之前，什么都無法預(yù)測，除非狗屎真的發(fā)生了，否則一個(gè)人不會(huì)承認(rèn)另一個(gè)人是勝利者的
I highly doubt the J20 would last long in a fight with an F35 but they they come into contact with an F22 it's for sure over for the J20. Ukraine has shown us a fight with Russia (conventional) would last about a month against the US and it would be nasty! But I have to wonder if the same is true for China? Before the Ukraine invasion I was very nervous about Russia and China's capabilities but I now feel I may have undervalued the ability of US war fighting capabilities. In hindsight maybe the revamped F15 wasn't such a bad Idea considering how underwhelming Russia's air force is. Just some thoughts I have day to day...
我高度懷疑J20能在與F35戰(zhàn)斗的戰(zhàn)斗中堅(jiān)持多久，不過如果他們與F22接觸了，那么J20肯定會(huì)立馬完蛋。烏克蘭已經(jīng)向我們表明，俄羅斯的常規(guī)戰(zhàn)斗能力太辣雞了！我想知道，中國是否也是如此？因?yàn)樵诙砹_斯入侵烏克蘭之前，我一直對俄羅斯和中國的能力非常緊張，但現(xiàn)在我覺得我可能低估了我們美國自己的作戰(zhàn)能力。事后看來，考慮到俄羅斯空軍的平庸表現(xiàn)，改版的F15就能干掉俄羅斯空軍甚至都也許不是一個(gè)不可能的糟糕主意。只是我個(gè)人每天的一些想法……
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I think somewhat far into the future, if 5th generation fighters are forced to fight one another, dogfighting will make a return, as they would be unable to get a BVR missile lock on a target they cannot detect until it's close, or a target they cannot acquire a weapons grade lock on.
我認(rèn)為在遙遠(yuǎn)的未來，如果第五代戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)相互戰(zhàn)斗，近距離空戰(zhàn)將會(huì)回歸，因?yàn)樗麄兌紝o法讓BVR導(dǎo)彈直接鎖定一個(gè)他們無法發(fā)現(xiàn)的目標(biāo)，只能等到它們相互靠近，或者有一個(gè)他們可以直接用武器鎖定的目標(biāo)。
You're forgetting another advantage of US' air force/stealth program: decades of actual experience fighting wars.
你忘記了美國空軍和隱形計(jì)劃的另一個(gè)優(yōu)勢：幾十年的實(shí)戰(zhàn)經(jīng)驗(yàn)。
J20 like horror dragons and all knows that dragons
J20就像一頭看起來恐怖的龍，但所有人都知道龍……哈哈表情
the products i've seen out of China haven't been the most quality oriented. functional but no longevity. perhaps their military suppliers work to a different standard.
我所見過的中國產(chǎn)品都不是最注重質(zhì)量的產(chǎn)品。功能強(qiáng)大但壽命短。也許他們的軍事供應(yīng)商的工作標(biāo)準(zhǔn)會(huì)不同吧。
Most 4.5 gen aircrafts have an RCS below 1m2. So the J20 and Su57 are actually only 4.5 generation. I think until China and Russia can build true 5th gen aircrafts, even Europe will start fielding the first 6th gen ones.
大多數(shù)4.5代飛機(jī)的RCS低于1米2。所以殲20和蘇57實(shí)際上只是4.5代。我認(rèn)為在中國和俄羅斯能造出真正的五代機(jī)之前，甚至歐洲也會(huì)開始部署第一批六代機(jī)。
Kind of alarming that the hacking happens and theres no huge concern about the damage resulting from that, include the fact some americans go to china to train these possible enemies because they get offered something..
黑客入侵的發(fā)生有點(diǎn)令人擔(dān)憂，但大家不用對由此造成的損害有太大的擔(dān)憂，包括一些美國人去中國訓(xùn)練這些可能的敵人，也不用擔(dān)憂，因?yàn)樗麄円驳玫搅艘恍〇|西……
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://m.flyercoupe.com 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
I will definitely disagree with you regarding thrust vectoring. It's a competitive edge that we just don't have. It will certainly come back to haunt us in the near future. Shoulda, woulda, coulda...
我個(gè)人不同意你關(guān)于矢量推力的觀點(diǎn)。這是我們（美國）還不具備完全優(yōu)勢的競爭。在不久的將來，它肯定會(huì)回來困擾我們。然后就是我們本應(yīng)該，本可以，本可能……
The J20 I believe was built off the St()len IP of the YF23
我相信J20是偷YF23的……
I honestly feel that a spitfire can take a J-10 whatever the thing is called.
老實(shí)說，我覺得噴火戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)都能干掉他們，管它叫什么殲-10還是什么。
i dont even think stealth matters anymore, these new AMRAAMs and the distance to which they can fire is insane.
我現(xiàn)在甚至開始認(rèn)為隱形能力已經(jīng)不重要了，這些新的中程導(dǎo)彈和它們的發(fā)射距離太瘋狂了。
J20 is as good at stealth as J35 is good at dogfighting
J20的隱身能力和J35的斗狗能力一樣好（嘲諷）
What purpose does ultra long range air to air BVR missile have against stealth fighters. You can't even lock on to them that far away, what's the point?
超遠(yuǎn)程空空BVR導(dǎo)彈對隱形戰(zhàn)機(jī)有什么作用？你在那么遠(yuǎn)的地方都不能鎖定他們，有什么意義？
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://m.flyercoupe.com 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
Guess that means : forget about going after the J20's kill the AWACS instead.
我猜這意味著：不要再去追擊殲20了，而是去消滅他們的預(yù)警機(jī)。
You can know how something is made, but you still have to operate it well. US pilots have the most experience.
你可以制造一件東西，但你仍然必須去熟練的操作它。而美國飛行員的經(jīng)驗(yàn)最為豐富。